Voir la version complète : Debate in English only
I propose that we chat in English only in this forum. Let's express your ideas, your opinion and your insight about our Amazigh culture and matters. I know all of you carry Tamazight on your heart. Our culture needs more than ever to be revived and praised so that some day in the coming future our children will learn it at schools, media will incorporate it in their programs, and all of us will be proud of it and of being Berber. Our fathers and grand fathers legacy has to be continued. Iwish all the best for Amazigh heritage and culture. Bright days are coming and barriers will clear out.
So let's get two opportunities at once; discuss cultural matter while parcticing the international language which is English. Ofcourse tamazight is allowed, but, please no French and no Arabic
Looking forward to see plenty of your contributions in this forum
oltidaouzdoute
13/01/2005, 17h12
I think that it is an excellent idea, because I really want to improve my English!!
But there is a lot of subject of our culture, then which subject wants you to discuss ?
please don't hesitate to correct me!
Tahdawite_75
13/01/2005, 17h57
Yes I speak English...Wall Street English :-D :-D
But I not understand :roll: :roll:
Ok let's suppose so, but you gave no topic? does anyone have a topic? (We all do need to improve our english !)
Ok for starters we all know that Morocco is a Amazigh country, when in the international press Morocco is mentioned always as a Arab Nation and Arab community, well of course the foreign press can make mistakes about this matter.
But not the national press of Morocco for example recently Morocco launched a new website named Moroccotimes.com wich provides news in english on Morocco.
Often I read news items on Moroccotimes where Morocco is called a Arab nation and not a Amazigh-Arab nation.
And calling Moroccan communities wich live in Europe 'arab community' knowing that the Moroccans in Europe(France,Belgium,The Nerhetrlands) are 90 % amazighopfhone
It is a sort of project like the french news site lematin.ma but there is a difference
Lematin.ma has weekly articles on Amazigh culture and language.
I have mailed moroccotimes to adopte the last mentioned project of lematin.ma and to provide the Anglopfhone world with news and articles on Amazigh matters.
So what do you all think, about this?
[ Edité par Idir le 13/1/2005 18:07 ]
Tahdawite_75
13/01/2005, 18h07
It's an umbrella....
:-P :-P :-P :-P :-P
Je capte rien a ce que vous dites!!!! :-( :-(
I heard about the launch of that newspaper and web site called MoroccoTimes but have never had the opportunity to check it out. I regularly read the moroccan news in Franch and watch moroccan TV that has programs in arabic. The introduction of Amazigh matters in articles and programs still very shy. I believe that this has to come from berbers tehmselves. We don' expect moroccan arab journalists to talk about us nor about our culture. I am aware that there are few newspaper in Tamazight but we can't get hold of it in Europe as they are only distributed in Morocco. We should raise our voices and claim the introduction of true Amazigh media. When is an Amazigh TV going to start broadcasting? It all depends upon us and how loudly we raise our claims. The authorities are not in our side. Let's educated them and get them used to generalised and freely expressed berber culture.
Regarding Lematin, I'd like to point out that this media is designed for System apraisal. They do not exhibit an objective insight on moroccan affairs
Yes media is a very important tool for the normalisation of tamazight in the Moroccan media.
I saw a emission of Izuran(brtv) where two members of IRCAM where invited A.Assid and M.Dmnati.
There are still many problems conserning Amazigh education, there was a question on creating a Amazigh Tv for Imazighn of Morocco. A.Assid said that this is a aption for the long term, we should work on integrating Tamazight in the existing stations like RTM1 and 2M from there they can work towards a Amazigh Tv.
Recently in the weekly RISSALAT AL-OUMMA 10/01/2005 , said that RTM decided to make 2005 the year of amazighite, starting to broadcast series and programs aiming to educate and introduce the Amazigh language, culture and identity with the collaboration of Royal Institut of Amazigh Culture IRCAM.
I saw a commercial on RTM on a Program called TIFAWIN wich will be broadcasted every monday at 22.30 Moroccan time. One of the programs was dedicated to Mas Sidqi Ali Azayku
Maybe it is a beginning but the things I want to see are debates and news in Tamazight of not 3 minutes but 30 minutes etc. Information in Tamazight.
i find that it is a good idea for english forum and i test to participate to this forum with my weak English level
small information, for those which do not anderstand French, you have the English flag in high right for the translation of the page with google
a big regards for our brothers english-speaking.
Before discussing media supports in Morocco, we’ve got to know what we are going to present! And how!!
And are we going to keep the same policy, are we going to keep the traditional view, sinking more and more our own culture pride?
Sincerely, do you think that an amazigh media is what is urgently needed?
What we do need today is firstly to be proud of what we are! To claim it! To be proud of being an amazigh, to speak it! To learn who we are, and what our history is!!
When most of imazighen would be so, then we wouldn’t need any more a media support!!
Instead of being sitting to wait to be given, we’ve got to claim!
It's a good thing to have create this post in english.
Our english speaking brothers and sisters all around the wolrd can participe to the developpment of Amazigh's culture in our site.
And i want only to add that if you have adress of chleuh's restaurants or anything else chleuh, you can add it in our new database !
thanks a lot and see you all ! :-)
Media can be used as a tool for education, information, like news at 20.00 o'clock
Starting with INGHMISN and not AL-AKHBAR :-D
I completly disagree with you Takfarinas.
We absolutely need Amazigh media. All sort of media: TV, newspapers, theatre etc. We are paying taxes, aren't we? If we want our culture to survive and thrive we should earge the Regime to establish these media. Reagrding Amazigh culture and how it's dealt with, my feeling is that the Makhzen is making one step forward and two backward! What is the looser? we and and our culture of course. Because, so much time has been wasted and Regime is only gaining time and heading towards realizing full arabization of our land.
To my knowledge I haven't never seen any amazigh ashamed by his statute of amazigh. If there are any, they should be the Regime's personnel
But still Moroccan policy is not clear enough, to believe that a media could be created to serve Tamazight
I think if the citezens start to use and claim their rights, it will be a first and good step. Everybody pays taxes as early said.
Use the existing channels of Morocco to promote Tamazight as said by Assid RTM1 and 2M.
You don't have to try re-invent the wheel! 8-)
OK, I agree with the idea of making RTM and 2M half amazigh and half arabic.
We don't have to try re-invent the wheel! But we have to adapt that wheel !!
We have not got any Moroccan media, TVM is Egyptian and 2M Mexican, so which is which and who is who?
:-)
I thinks that a media 50/50 s not a good idea, because they not respect this agreement, we go fell on the current system or tamazight is always lower
we need our tamazight media 100% to improve our culture and to known it with the other.
The amazigh lobby is not aware of his role! They do prefer to invest in Arabic programs than amazigh ones!
imikk s imikk asay ikcm aram s tikint
I think by introducing Tamazight in the existing media tmazight will be normalised, it will have a place in the media, a place wich on this moment does not exist. It should be normal that there is of everything in Morocco a version of it in Tamazight.
Talking about versions of Tamazight, on the site of IER: l'Instance Equité et Réconciliation , they announced in 2004 to have a version of their site in Tamazight soon, I sitll haven't seen it!?
http://www.ier.ma/IMG/jpg/DSC_0006.jpg
And an other example the education of Tamazight on schools in Marakkech said to be first 34 schools after questiongs they only found 17 schools who wanted to participate in Tamazight education.
takfarinas you mean programs made about amazigh culture spoken only in arabic? if so you are right there should be a begining in programs spoken 100% in Tamazight :-D
Thanks Baddou for taking this initiativ to start an english forum in chleuhs.com.
I personaly think it might not be a bat idea but,dont you see that there is some inconvenient??What shall all those who dont speak English think about this?
[ Edité par Aghrabi le 14/1/2005 0:37 ]
ok brothers
how are you??
i am not very strong in english,but i want to speak in this forum
good luck ichlhay,walakine adour toum tachlhiite lol
aiwa aghrabi,what do you think about my englisssssssssssh, iss dah mrchhh'h???
loooooooooooooooooooool
TOUFTITRIT
14/01/2005, 00h02
hey brothers and sisters, stop that joke, ashlhey yant igan art issawal.
We don't need any other languages.
We need to improve tamazight
Please be yourselves.
By this way, you may loose your own language.
c'est l'histoire du corbeau qui essaie d'imiter la marchedu pigeon, mais il n' y est pas arrivé, il voulu retrouver sa marche mais il l'a oubliée, c'est pour ça que les corbeau marchent tordu.
TOUFTITRIT a écrit*:
hey brothers and sisters, stop that joke, ashlhey yant igan art issawal.
We don't need any other languages.
We need to improve tamazight
Please be yourselves.
By this way, you may loose your own language.
c'est l'histoire du corbeau qui essaie d'imiter la marchedu pigeon, mais il n' y est pas arrivé, il voulu retrouver sa marche mais il l'a oubliée, c'est pour ça que les corbeau marchent tordu.
I agree completely with you sister Touftitrit!!
Toufitri, we along days speak french so why speaking english today would be so dangerous!!
Please do respect, room roles, english only!!
Thanks!
[ Edité par takfarinas le 14/1/2005 0:22 ]
I do not see any issue to posting in English. It is only about a single forum amongst thousand of french-written fora. This is an opportunity to people practicing english. No one cares about how good you are writing in english. The most important is that you share your ideas and opinions in this language. It is also a place for non french-speeking peole to find information about amazigh culuture and probably participate.
I wish I had a Tifinagh keyboard, I would post many topics in Tamazight. Infortunatly we have no way to write in our mother tongue so far. Hope things will get better in the future with the aid of the so controvertial IRCAM
TOUFTITRIT
14/01/2005, 00h30
sorry good luck to the most famous room of the site :-D :-D :-D
good idea
we needs a forum our diaspora not french speeking in this site
regards
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERY BODY *** 2955 ***
Click here : (http://www.artworkis.com/card.html) to see more Amazigh E-cards, you can create and send your own card.
http://www.artworkis.com/cards/3-sm.jpg
http://www.artworkis.com/cards/22-sm.jpg
http://www.artworkis.com/cards/25-sm.jpghttp://www.artworkis.com/cards/26-sm.jpg
http://www.artworkis.com/cards/27-sm.jpg
http://www.artworkis.com/cards/29-sm.jpghttp://www.artworkis.com/cards/28-sm.jpg
http://www.artworkis.com/cards/31-sm.jpghttp://www.artworkis.com/cards/30-sm.jpg
http://www.artworkis.com/cards/32-sm.jpg
[ Edité par Alyazid le 13/1/2005 19:42 ]
[ Edité par takfarinas le 14/1/2005 10:23 ]
Baddou a écrit*:
I do not see any issue to posting in English. It is only about a single forum amongst thousand of french-written fora. This is an opportunity to people practicing english. No one cares about how good you are writing in english. The most important is that you share your ideas and opinions in this language. It is also a place for non french-speeking peole to find information about amazigh culuture and probably participate.
I wish I had a Tifinagh keyboard, I would post many topics in Tamazight. Infortunatly we have no way to write in our mother tongue so far. Hope things will get better in the future with the aid of the so controvertial IRCAM
I'm completly agree with you Baddou and I think you for this initiative, really it's a good opportinuty that one improve its english writting and so many other things, and there's no danger for our mother tongue, far from there!!!
for using Amazigh keyboard, you have a topic "Apprendre Tifinagh" where can find some useful informations, click here to get the page. (http://www.leschleuhs.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3477&forum=1)
LOUZIMIMENE
14/01/2005, 10h11
Salam,
Firstly I would like to thank you for this initiative and I think it's an intersting idea for many raisons :
1. English is the most spoken language on the world.
2. English is the usfual language on research.
oltidaouzdoute
14/01/2005, 11h03
I don't believe that our mother language is in danger, practically all the forums are in French!!!
perhaps, we will have even German forums Spanish and others...!
About did the media I always wonder whether the chleuhs have really brakes?
I'm sure that there is lot of chleuh journalist, chleuh producers and so one... I think that if all the chleuhs which are high scale invest a little more, we will have a chain since good a long time!
Hellou!
Madou kane tinime?
May ga raya?
oure fahemre oualou :-?
oltidaouzdoute
14/01/2005, 11h53
IN ENGLISH ONLY!!!
May i speak my language please?
hak aoua hak! hak!
OK, let's resume our debate regarding the creation of an amazigh TV. To whom should we adress our claims?
I think we should first contact our parliament representatives. We need to lobby before these representatives to make our claim be heard at the parliament.
Please let us know here the name and adress of your district reprensentative. We will send them a letter where we express our claims. I will write this letter in French on the behalf of ichelhyine residing in France.
I do not know my district representative for the fact that they disapear just after they get elected. Is somebody here knows the representative of goulmima-Tinejdada-Mellab district?
This is the right occasion for moroccotimes to dedicate an article on the Amazigh movies of Morocco and cinema.
MAP released a pressrelease on a film of Said Naciri 'les Bandits'wich is in Amazigh(Tashelhiyt) version.
Doublage du film " Les bandits " de Saïd Naciri en langue amazighe
I have send this pressrelease to moroccotimes, I wonder if it will published this week? :-?
Takfarina wrote; Sincerely, do you think that an amazigh media is what is urgently needed?What we do need today is firstly to be proud of what we are! To claim it! To be proud of being an amazigh, to speak it! To learn who we are, and what our history is!!
When most of imazighen would be so, then we wouldn’t need any more a media support!!
Azul bro,
I personaly dont see any other way to realize it than by Our Own privat tv station and by our own media.Seeing that with a adequate resourses in the present position with a present governemment tv monopol,Amazigh Voice will never win the land and will never be heard!
[ Edité par Aghrabi le 14/1/2005 15:41 ]
oltidaouzdoute
14/01/2005, 15h19
Aghrabi a écrit*:
Amazigh Voice will never win the land and will never be heard!
[ Edité par Aghrabi le 14/1/2005 15:41 ]
You're pessimistic !!!
if you wants to be hear, well it's necessary to shout!!
Badou it's a good initiative, but it will be necessary to hang because the door of large should not be simple to open!!!
I got the name and adress of Tinghir's district representative in the parlaimant house. He is Mr. Sajiri.
Please provides us here with adresses of your hometwon representatives so as we can write to them to raise our claims regarding the establishment of an Amazigh TV and Media
Tamazirtino
17/01/2005, 14h48
Proud Amazigh
(Tamazirtino)
I’m very proud of my people and very optimistic for the future of Tamazight and its warriors. Our people have been prosecuted and denied their freedom for decades but they survived and our cutler survived as well. Now is our turn to move forward and re-establish our selves in the word and show that the generations before us did not suffer for nothing and their resilience and resistance to the occupiers was not waste of time and energy; let’s tell the world “who we are and how proud we are” to be Imazighen. Today we are celebrating 2955 years of our existence its very hard to believe that nation that old which extend from Canary Islands to Egypt still fighting for its basic rights: like having our language “TAMAZIGHT” taught in schools and the right to TV station where we can hear our language so we know that we belong !!! :-? To a society which we gave lot and got nothing in return.
Tanmirt :-(
Tamazirtino
“The lion is wounded but still fighting “
Taught
Thanks Tamazirtino for your contribution. You are welcome among your fellow berbers. Many thinks also for praising the amazigh identity and culture.
We are taxe payeres. We berbers either abroad or at home contribute to the wealth and development of our country. We have many busnissmen in Casa holding key companies. We have a huge community abroad who is investing in the country and thus creating tousands of jobs for locals. As our brother Tamzirtinou pointed out, we are getting nothing in return from the governoment. Our money is spent to promote middle-eastern culture that is extraneous to our traditions and heritage. We struggle for our rights in promoting our culture and langage. None, but none, can prevent us from highlighting and praising our identity.
Let's first adress parliamant representatives. Then if this turns out to be insufficient, we call for big demonstrations all over the contry and abroad.
Please post here the name and adress of your district representative in the parliament. I'll draft a common and solemn letter to be sent to all of the amazigh house representatives on the bahlf of amazigh youth living abroad
oltidaouzdoute
17/01/2005, 16h31
I don't know if it's what you seeks but you can find on this site all the presidents of council of each area of Morocco.
ICI (http://www.mincom.gov.ma/french/reg_vil/regions/Souss-Massa-Drâa/index.html)
Bougayou
17/01/2005, 18h48
Baddou a écrit :
Let's first adress parliamant representatives. Then if this turns out to be insufficient, we call for big demonstrations all over the contry and abroad.
Please post here the name and adress of your district representative in the parliament. I'll draft a common and solemn letter to be sent to all of the amazigh house representatives on the bahlf of amazigh youth living abroad
I'd hate to be the one to rain on your parade, but somebody has got to do it.
:roll: Writing letters to members of the House of Representatives as a means of bringing about change in Morocco ? ... talk about an excercise in futility !!!!
If you think for a moment that the so called "House of Representatives" or any of its members are there to serve you (unless, of course, you happen to be one their relatives) ... you live in fu***** dream :-x
So wake up and smell the ... you know what ;-)
Bougayou, I want you please to keep coarse language out of this forum.
I am not saying that writing the representatives will automatically bring about some new interesting things. But, I want these reprsentatives to firts witness and agnowledge our claims. Then if they do not react we will follow up by organizing big demonstrations throughout Morocco and abroad.
We will call for boycotting the next elections if our claims are not materliazed.
I recall that we are claiming the establishment of 100% amazigh TV and Media
Bougayou
17/01/2005, 19h08
Baddou a écrit :
Bougayou, I want you please to keep coarse language out of this forum.
I am not saying that writing the representatives will automatically bring about some new interesting things. But, I want these reprsentatives to firts witness and agnowledge our claims. Then if they do not react we will follow up by organizing big demonstrations throughout Morocco and abroad.
We will call for boycotting the next elections if our claims are not materliazed.
I recall that we are claiming the establishment of 100% amazigh TV and Media
Baddou ... in case you have not noticed, I've been around here for longer than you have, and I know a thing or two about the rules of conduct around these forums. So, please don't lecture me on coarse language & profanity.
As for your suggestions, well ... I do wish you the best of luck. You are obviously up for ... Fighting Windmills ;-)
Mr Bougayou, no matter how you are and how long have you been here, I do not really care. The Bible said, "The first will be the last and the last will be the first" , Amen. What matters for me most is our culture and identity and how strong we will be in fighting the tides(Tsunamy) and storms of the overwhelming arabization. We want you to carry positive attitude and at least put in your two cents to help us fight the battle. As you said the Lion is wounded but not yet dead. The lion is us and our heritage and that's the bottom line
Bougayou
17/01/2005, 22h30
Baddou, first of all, please don't call me "Mr" ... I work for a living, for heaven's sake.
Second, I only do fight battles I can win ... and live to fight another day.
As far as I'm concerned, "the tides and storms of the overwhelming arabization" you're talking about are, at best, nothing more than a Tempest in a Tea Cup.
I do not fear for our Culture, nor do I need some ignorant member of the Moroccan Parliment to help me preserve it. My culture, our culture, is alive and well ... in our homes and in our hearts. All of us here ... we live it, we breathe it and it sustains us. Our Sun rises and sets with it. It's been that way for our forefathers and God willing, it is here to stay. In fact its mere existence today is a testament to its resillience ;-)
Since you seem to enjoy quoting from the Bible, I'll paraphrase a couple of verses from Isaiah 43 ... just for you: "Fear not... when you walk through the fire (of arabization) you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze."
;-)
[ Edité par Bougayou le 17/1/2005 23:13 ]
guys guys makunyaghn? let me quote you from the Holy Quran in Tamazight:
Amawal-Note:
agharas-abrid
ghwilli-willigh
Smun agh, tmelt agh, agharas yughden
Guides-nous sur la voie de rectitude
Guide us to the straight path,
Agharas n ghwilli tesnnufat, ur d ayt tiwerri, ula imuddâr.
La voie de ceux qui Tu as gratifiés, non pas celles des réprouvés, non plus que de ceux qui s'égarent.
The path of those whom You have favoured, Not of those who have incurred Your wrath, Nor of those who have gone astray.
Sgh: 1. Al-Fatiha / Takettûmt n tsaduft / Ouverture / The Exordium
Aghbalu: www.mondeberbere.com
[ Edité par Idir le 17/1/2005 22:51 ]
Please guys, do respect each other's ideas, where are here to discuss, each one of us has got his own believes and own point of view!! So take it easy!!
Roles are the same, even for an English room, so please, do respect each one of you; otherwise, this post would be closed!!
[ Edité par takfarinas le 17/1/2005 23:24 ]
Bagayou. never mind if I called you Mr. You should be a smart guy that's why I wanted to honour you.
You should wake up. Unless you are what we call "amazigh de service", you oughta be sensitive to amazigh issues. Arabization is a fact. It's a long time policy directed to eradicating amazigh identity. They already have made significant achievement in some areas. For instance, do not bother speaking berber in Khemisset nor in Ifrane for they are all arabized. The IRCAM and all the garbage and misinformation the regime is carrying out is just propaganda to better craddle berbers like you while the arabization tumor is spreading out all over the sick berber body
I am sorry to disagree with you, but our Sun nowadays sets with all kind of arabic programs on my home country TV for which I pay my taxes. I deserve to be better treated than a second hand citizen a so does all my fellow berbers. This is all about our rights.
Now if it takes to write our stupid (I agree with you) representatives to be heard, why not. This is just an option. If this does not work, we will try others means of stressing the rulers. In any case we will not call for violence nor riots. Our struggle and fighting should be peacefull.
If you have any other option to propose, please go head. But please do not call for staying mute and watching, while arabization is sweeping our land
Bougayou
17/01/2005, 23h47
Baddou a écrit :
Bagayou. never mind if I called you Mr. You should be a smart guy that's why I wanted to honour you.
.... Unless you are what we call "amazigh de service"
:lol: :lol: :lol:
There it goes ... Baddou giveth and (shortly thereafter) taketh away.
Rest assured, I'm not here to bang heads with you for long. I'm all for promoting our culture ... God knows it could use it. Allow me, however, to laugh at those daydreamers who go on thinking that somehow their rights will be handed to them on a silver platter ... simply because they have written a letter to X or Y.
You want an Amazigh-only TV or media outlet ... go raise the necessary Capital, and start one up. Period. After that, by all means, let them air all the garbage they want (be it arabic , french, americain ... and you name it) on their TV ... and let the people choose their own poison.
Personnally, I don't care much for those imazighen who are willing to let themselves be corrupted and poisonned so easily ... to them I say: good riddance ... we're better without you anyway ;-)
[ Edité par Bougayou le 17/1/2005 23:49 ]
Bougaoyou, we are here to share insights, points of view on cultural matters. I am not trying to teach you anthing nor providing you with any guidance. You are at age and you know better than I what suits you and where you want to go. If your are satisified with the current status of our culture, so should it be for you. Millions of other do not share your stand point and they have no body strong enough to make their voice heard by the policy makers. This is what we call the silent majority
Now pardon me to challenge you on your statement here below. do not take it as an offense.
you said:
[quote]
You want an Amazigh-only TV or media outlet ... go raise the necessary Capital, and start one up.
quote]
Here hits the ground your analysis. Besides paying taxes supposed to fund public Media, I also need to raise additional money to pay something that is normally granted in democtratic context. Something goes wrong!
Bougayou
18/01/2005, 00h40
If you knew anything about how media conglomerates are born and how they evolve, you'd know that all governmental intervention does is make a mess of things.
I do agree that there needs to be a Public TV outlet similar to PBS (Public Broadcasting System) in the US, or the CBC in Canada ... funded, at least in part, by taxpayers money. But I have trouble seeing such a thing happening in Morocco.
Your best chance will be through a private entreprise, private capital ... and revenues driven by advertising to interested audiences ;-)
By the way, such a private media compagny will still have to lease the Airwaves which, I do want to stress, are and must remain Public. The revenues from leasing the Public Airwaves would then be used to improve the Public TV. If managed well ... it's a win-win situation for everybody.
[ Edité par Bougayou le 18/1/2005 0:45 ]
So we all agree that the current situation must be changed.
It all takes time, if we start a new channel or we integrate Tamazight in the existing channels of Morocco.
Starting a new channel will not only cost money but you also need experience people with expertise, journailsts writes knowing to do their work in Tamazight they all should be educated in this.
Does a channel need a license, and if we are talking about Imazighn they aren't even recognized by law in Morocco our existens isn't written in any official document.
BUt it still needs to happen, recognision
Morocco sustains two arabic TV stations. It's non sense to say that they can't fund a third one didicated to berbers only. It's only good willing that lacks. The regime still mistrusts berbers and fears an overwhelming revival of amazigh identity that may put in danger or even sweep away the arabic heritage
Exactly a Baddou, igat lh'al
Not to forget Almaghribiya and an other fourth coming television station in darija I don't know the name.
[ Edité par Idir le 18/1/2005 13:12 ]
Besides the creation of an amazigh TV we must also strongly push towards amending the constitution to give the amazigh language a national statute.
So, Amazigh a national language. Amend the constitution. Establish Amazigh TV and media. Teach Amazigh at schools.
These are our motos
A corretion Tamazight is already a national language, it is used across the whole country from north too south. Tamazight as an official language is what we want.
Yes Idir, it's a national language since it is practiced every day by millions of moroccans. But it is still not yet mentionned in the constitution. So we need to raise this issue. Let's say, we want it to be an official language as well as arabic
Lest's write a letter to our King. I think the king is the highest autority in our country. If the king states something nobody can disagree. Hoping that our letter will not end up in the waste basket of a cabinet member.
I want to bring up to the surface this forum. Any body interested in debating in english?
What do you thing about writing directly the king?
I think that our King is informated by amazigh's conditions in Morocco. We can write him a letter about that, or ask for a meeting with one of his councils.
Every means is good for our people, it's a daily fight. We come from Morocco, we are morrocan, and amazigh proud to be. But a day inch'Allah, we will win.
MissSoussia
26/01/2005, 10h59
Goodmorning,
It's a good issue you're raising here and I agree with your points (Idir), but I think that you're rushing it too much.
In order to get recognition in Morocco and to have the same rights as Arabs, we need a solid base to build upon.
It can not be established without having proper human rights, equal rights for women, the battle against illiteracy, improvement of the economical situation (38% of the working population is currently unemployed). Western companies prefer to invest in countries with a non-islamic government like India and China, which means less opportunities for Morocco.
You can not just ignore all those problems and give priority to the Amazigh-rights. What will be the added value of it for our country?
We have to be Moroccan first and then Amazigh.
I believe that we have to give priority to above mentioned national problems, we have to guarantee a safe future for us and for our children.
Our Amazigh-identity will not be forgotten as long as we invest in it. Like we have done over the past 5000 years.
But in order to guarantee the Amazigh-future, we also need to invest in our own country, our Tamazgha, which is Morocco.
I think that our King M6 is doing a good job. A lot of work has already been done in the field of human rights and equal rights for women.
Don't tear the Amazigh-identity apart from the Moroccan-identity
Miss Soussia
Of course MissSoussia, but this is already taken in considiration by the amazigh mouvement in Morocco.
They are active in many fields for all Moroccans.
For example working with; the International organization of labour(l'Organisation Internationale de travail), Humanrights organisations{children and women}., social aspects and of course the cultural and linguistic fields.
You said'We have to be Moroccan first and then Amazigh.'
These two are the same in my opinion, it is all for one, one for all. But in reality others do not.
MissSoussia
26/01/2005, 13h59
Ok, I didn't know that the amazigh-mouvements already took initiative to improve the overall situation of all Moroccans.
Is this being done by the mouvements mainly in Europe or are these initatives being taken by organizations in Morocco?
I see another role we could play.
Most Moroccans living abroad are Amazighs
King M6 could make use of us as an important Moroccan voice in Europe.
We are European residents and we could have better access to the European lobby.
All these activities are done by the people in Morocco, about the lobby that's true if it is done well.
ur illi kra bla kra
MissSoussia, thanks for your constructive contribution.
I agree with you the Western investments go mostly to non muslim countries (China, India). This is because of the ugly image the muslim countries are exhibiting to the rest of the world. Terrorism, human rights abuse, women ill-treating and so on, just to name a few. The amazigh movement is secular, modernist and non-religious. Through establishment of a moroccan amazigh identity, the outiside image of the country will be reinforced and this will contribute to many aspects of wealth creation and economy soaring. To convince you on this fact, just look at how Western tourists are rushing to berber areas in Morocco to mix with berbers and flirt with their culture. In other words, amazighity is a very good trade mark for the country. Arabity will only pull us down and nothing else.
So amazighity needs to be a top priority along with other priorities such as education, human rights, economical reforms, etc.
About writing to the king, we should strengthen our position as a potential conversations partner.
Have you ever heard the advisor of the King Andre Azoulay, I am interested to know the position of the advisor first. I once heard him say about the situation on terror(about the explosions in Casablanca/Anfa)
The jewish community is an ancient community of Morocco living here for 3000 years, long before the Islam reached Morocco.
Azoulay is a Jewish Berber his ancestors are wel integrated in the Amazigh community.
ok come on !!
Is mohamed ?
:-D
a proverb amazigh say "argaz ouraysskar tamart iwaya" that we can translate by "a man does not make money for another"
I want to say only the imazeghens can build their future and to develop their culture "
it should not count on the others, which misses today is an awakening of the danger which course our language
MissSoussia
27/01/2005, 11h19
We actually all agree with each other and we are of course responsible for our own development.
But the problem we are discussing here is basically a modernized version of the same old problem we were facing throughout the centuries.
And I think that we will make the same old mistake again. We Amazighs never succeeded to be unified as one. And that was the weakness which the Arabs made use of when they conquered Morocco and the French & Spanish used our weakness again when they colonialized us.
We speak of Amazighity, but in fact we were divided by the laws of nature (mountains and deserts) and tribal wars. Now in these modern times we are divided by economic and social differences. On one side we have a large amazigh-population living in Morocco in poor economic circumstances and highly dependent of the Arab authorities. Further we have a smaller intellectual elite from the upper-class of Morocco which tries to balance its amazighity with the Arab standards and demands of this Arab-Moroccan society. And the 3rd group consists of independent Amazighs living in a totally different economical and political environment in Europe.
These 3 groups could all agree with each other and they all find it important to get a properous and stable Morocco where everyone, Amazigh and Arab will live in peace under a stable economical situation. But on a short term each group has different priorities and different needs. Ideas can not feed the poor.
My personal opinion is that we can not be unified without the help of our King M6.
We need him and he needs us.
Further about giving Morocco an Amazigh image to attract more investors, while denying our arab culture and islamic religion.
There is a large risk.
Look at Turkey, they did the same under Kemal Ataturk, selling a part of their culture and their religion. Selling their soul for Dollars and Euros. They have already changed their government from an islamic government into a secular government. And what is their gain? The still have a weak economy and they are still not accepted by the European Community and they will not be accepted until they have sold it all in order to be exploited by Europe and the US.
I do not think that arabity pulls us down. It is part of our culture as Islam is.
I would rather see Amazigh, Arab and Islam as strenghts, they are the living soul of Morocco
I agree what you said about the king which can be a key, I want ad some info on historical facts of Morocco and North Africa in general. We are not divided we are one(all moroccans).
-Edward Westermarck-
...It should be noticed, however, that the term 'Arab is only an indication of language, not race.There can be no doubt that the large majority of Arabic-speaking tribes in Morocco are pyrely or essentially Berber by origin...
...An anthropological investigation of over eight thousand natives of
Eastern Barbary(tamazgha) has led Messrs. Bertholon and Chantre to the conclusion that the number of Arab immigrants has always been insufficient to impress their type on the mass of the people, and that " the so called Arab tribes of North Africa present the same somatic characteristics as other tribes which are incontestably Berbers(Imazighn)"*...
-Robert Montagne-
According to Robert Montagne, the census conducted by the French government in late 1800's revealed that 75% of the Moroccan population was Amazigh and two thirds of the remaining 25% were bilingual, that is, speak both Tamazight and Arabic. He added that this bilingual population was Amazigh but it was counted as Arab. The census of the 70's indicated a much lower percentage (50% versus 75%), a direct consequence of the arabization process. There was no mention of the bilingual population.
Mitochondrial DNA Heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers-
Despite this Berber heterogeneity, no significant differences were found between Berber and Arab samples, suggesting that the Arabization was mainly a cultural process rather than a demographic replacement.
-----------------------------
-Edward Westermarck-
*.Bertholon and Chantre, Recherches anthropologiques la Berbérie orientale (lyon, 1913), pp. 347, 358.
Source: Ritual and Belief in Morocco
written by Edward Westermarck 1919
-Robert Montagne-
Source: Reflections on the Amazigh Consciousness in Morocco
An Essay By Ahmed El Asser,a note from the essay written by Ahmed El Asser, in amazighvoice/taghect tamazight.
-Mitochondrial DNA Heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers-
Source: Annals of Human Genetics,Volume 68: Issue 3, 2004
I want to add a quote from a letter of King Moulay Sliman:
" Religion is advice, I bear witness. If you want security for yourselves, o people of Fes, enter into a peace pact with Berbers. They have laws and magnanimity that prevent them from being unjust; [moreover], they are sober and content with what is strictly necessary."
Source: http://www.mondeberbere.com/societe/manifest.htm
Here is draft of the letter we want to send to the king. Please do not hesitate to complete it or even improve it.
**********
Sa Majeste le Roi Mohamed 6 Ben El Hassan, Que Dieu vous glorifie,
Nous, sujets de votre majesté, fidels au glorieux trone alaouite, amazigh dans l'ame et residents a l'etranger, sollicitons votre majesté pour un sujet
qui nous est cher et pour une cause que nous portons dans nos coeur.
Sir, nous souhaitons susciter votre interet pour notre projet de creation d'un media televisuel, public, entierement dedié a la langue et la culture Amazigh. Notre culture est celle du royaume, et nous faisions toujour l'appologie de la tolerance, de la fraternite et de l'unité du pays. Nous voulons voir notre culture elevée au meme rang que les autre cultures pilieres de notre identité et de notre histoire, afin qu'elle soit transimise de maniere optimale aux generations a venir, mais aussi, pour que notre pays puisse s'enorgeuiller d'une richesse culturelle plusieurs fois millenaire.
En donnant votre haute directive pour la creation de ce media vous illuminerez les ceours de millions de vos sujets les plus fidels.
la suite...
[ Edité par Baddou le 28/1/2005 10:49 ]
please read the letter here below and share with us your comment and improvements.
Once completed I will send it on behalf of the amazigh living abroad to the cabinet of the king
**********
Sa Majeste le Roi Mohamed 6 Ben El Hassan, Que Dieu vous glorifie,
Nous, sujets de votre majesté, fidels au glorieux trone alaouite, amazigh dans l'ame et residents a l'etranger, sollicitons votre majesté pour un sujet
qui nous est cher et pour une cause que nous portons dans nos coeur.
Sir, nous souhaitons susciter votre interet pour notre projet de creation d'un media televisuel, public, entierement dedié a la langue et la culture Amazigh. Notre culture est celle du royaume, et nous faisions toujour l'appologie de la tolerance, de la fraternite et de l'unité du pays. Nous voulons voir notre culture elevée au meme rang que les autre cultures pilieres de notre identité et de notre histoire, afin qu'elle soit transimise de maniere optimale aux generations a venir, mais aussi, pour que notre pays puisse s'enorgeuiller d'une richesse culturelle plusieurs fois millenaire.
En donnant votre haute directive pour la creation de ce media vous illuminerez les ceours de millions de vos sujets les plus fidels.
la suite...
Some of us here carry bad attitude. For some reason (I still ignore), they keep rocketing our endeavors to defend our culture and rights as citizens of Morocco. One of chleuhs.com's veterans has treated our debate as Bullshit. If it takes early subscription and dozens of non-sense postings to gain the statute of veteran, many chatters would have earned the statute of Moderator
I hope this won’t discourage our chleuhs who are genuinely defending their culture
What do you mean Baddou what happend exactly?
Bougayou
31/01/2005, 22h35
Baddou a écrit :
One of chleuhs.com's veterans has treated our debate as Bullshit.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I'd really want to meet this guy ... sounds like the man after my own heart :-D
[ Edité par Bougayou le 31/1/2005 22:36 ]
Baddou a écrit*:
Some of us here carry bad attitude. For some reason (I still ignore), they keep rocketing our endeavors to defend our culture and rights as citizens of Morocco. One of chleuhs.com's veterans has treated our debate as Bullshit. If it takes early subscription and dozens of non-sense postings to gain the statute of veteran, many chatters would have earned the statute of Moderator
I hope this won’t discourage our chleuhs who are genuinely defending their culture
A modarator has the right to give his opinion,
Give us the intervention and the moderator about you speaks.
hearth leaves, the moderator are selected by vote of the team in place and this vote by level of intervention and their behavior on the forum
thank you
Bougayou
31/01/2005, 23h11
Lahcen a écrit :
A modarator has the right to give his opinion,
Give us the intervention and the moderator about you speaks.
hearth leaves, the moderator are selected by vote of the team in place and this vote by level of intervention and their behavior on the forum
thank you
No Lahcen ... I think our friend here is talking about me, in regard to a few private messages that were exchanged between the two of us.
So, don't worry ... I don't think any of your Moderators is to blame ;-)
Maghreb Arab Press to launch new version of its website
Rabat, Feb 1 – Maghreb Arab Press Agency will launch, on March 1st, the new version of its website in four language, Arabic, French, English and Spanish on the URL: www.map.ma ...
http://www.map.co.ma/mapeng/home_dep/h_depGabon.htm
It's very ridiculous to see that in the year 2005 Tamazight is still excluded from the national press. IER made(2004) a gesture on their site, to publish a version of the site in Tamazight. MAP could just learn something from that but unfortunately, there still is nothing for Imazighn.
The IER made a notification on their old site in the year 2004:
l'Instance Equité et Réconciliation (IER)
www.ier.ma
La version amazigh du site (www.ier.ma) sera prochainement disponible
Iwaliwn ixwan!
Where is the right on information in your own language?
[ Edité par Idir le 2/2/2005 13:32 ]
thanks Idir for the info.
It's completly non-sense to have moroccan media in many foreign language and no single media is in Tamazight.
When I watch the RTM, I get really upset by the way they deal with Tamazight information. It lasts only 3 minutes and it's called Dialects Information (Akhbar Lahajate) which means that amazigh is only a mere dialect of arabic. It's really disgusting
salam
there is no difference b/w a dialect and a language each one is ruled tha same way as the other so the differentiation is only a matter of politics that is to say it's the goverment of a certain country who decides whether a spoken lge should be called a language or a simple dialect .
Titrite_n_wadane
02/02/2005, 16h16
As far as I know, a dialect is a language we cannot write. This was true for Tamazight, but is not the case anymore.
Anyway, the idea of a Chelh channel would be really great, cause I'm completely at a loss when I watch Moroccan TV... :-( I speak and understand well darija, but not arabic :-?
Hi Titrite_n_wadane I have to tell you that it was not the case for Tamazight, because Tamazight and specialy Tashelhiyt of south Morocco has always been written, books, poems , on medicins etc.
One of the example's is the book of Muhammed Awzal.
A poem from Sidi Hamou
http://www.geocities.com/lameens/tifinagh/images/sidi-hammo.jpg
a poem(ayt ba3mran) about Christian-Muslim wars
http://www.geocities.com/lameens/tifinagh/images/ait-ba-amrane.jpg
in a former type by lameen:
يَنْ زِكْ صْبَحْ اَرْسْمُقْلْن غْلَوْضِينْ
كِّنْدِسْنْ لْوُحُشْ اڞْلْمضْ مْكَنْ دِفِّشْ
اِكْدِ سْنْ وَيَّضْ مْنِدْ اضْفْرْتِدْ وَيَّضْ
لْقُوْتْ نِڞْنْكَضْ دْوِشِّنْ ارْدْ اِفْكْدْ لْوُحُشْ
You can find some info on this on this page:
http://www.geocities.com/lameens/tifinagh/index.html
Hi Idir, very nice scripture.
I experienced poblems in discerning what's written because of the old style of writing.
I you can please share with us the texts in latin-written berber
I will try it later ok, it is difficult :-D
Un other thread I would like to develop here is the FTA (Free trade agreement with US). This agreement states that moroccans and americans can import or export between the two countries without having to pay taxes. Will this agreement benefit our country? What kind of goods can we export to US.
I tihnk this will benifit mostly textyle industry. We will gain more comptitiveness compared to other textyle-industry countries such as China, Pakistan and Bangladeish.
Our country will also attract europeen compagnies desiring to export to US tax-free and will in turn create jobs and wealth for moroccans. I welcome anything you can share with us on this matter
What kind of goods can we export to US.
there are many things,example,drugs,lies,fasehood,corruption ,(Kwalb-Sekkar)etc,etc...
[ Edité par Aghrabi le 4/2/2005 17:44 ]
No body lifts a single finger when it comes to dealing with concrete matters. Discussing futilities all day long is the sport that most members of site know best practicing.
All the outcome from the discussions I have seen in this forum is just noise and fultility. I am very pesemestic about the future of our culture since those who are its owner are just not caring
I dont know how old the visitors are of leschleuhs.com maybe some of them are not that serious in debating
I hope to see Morocco import knowledge and know how on many aspects for the children of Morocco who are the future.
oltidaouzdoute
11/02/2005, 11h57
Idir a écrit*:
I dont know how old the visitors are of leschleuhs.com maybe some of them are not that serious in debating
it's not a question of old ! if you are not able to accept criticisms then you are not able to debate!
Idir a écrit*:
I dont know how old the visitors are of leschleuhs.com maybe some of them are not that serious in debating
ider,
excuse me but i thinks that s bad to class people by old, practically all the Net surfers whom you see on other site amazigh visit leschleeuhs.com but what makes the force of this site it is that one can find the races of any age there and thus it is necessary to know mix instead of wanting creates club of small and clubs of large, the young people it is our future made that they become here shows their attachment identity, certainly DEBATES dificile do not interessent them but is necessary to leave time and made that it is with us is a large pleasure (man, woman, child, baby....)
igat lh'al a Lahcen it is a bad clasification. I did not understand what was going on between other members thats why.
Lahcen a écrit*:
Idir a écrit*:
I dont know how old the visitors are of leschleuhs.com maybe some of them are not that serious in debating
ider,
excuse me but i thinks that s bad to class people by old, practically all the Net surfers whom you see on other site amazigh visit leschleeuhs.com but what makes the force of this site it is that one can find the races of any age there and thus it is necessary to know mix instead of wanting creates club of small and clubs of large, the young people it is our future made that they become here shows their attachment identity, certainly DEBATES dificile do not interessent them but is necessary to leave time and made that it is with us is a large pleasure (man, woman, child, baby....)
Lahcen, when you translate french to english using an online translator, it just does not make sense. Try to write directly in english, it should be better. no body cares about any mistake, or phrasale inconsistency, you might make as long as you make the effort to experess your toughts.
Tamazirtino
17/02/2005, 17h29
[ Edité par Tamazirtino le 17/2/2005 16:40 ]
Tamazirtino
17/02/2005, 17h40
Azul
Here some very interesting links to look at if you don’t know theme yet.
Have good read:
http://atmazret.site.voila.fr
http://membres.lycos.fr/moresco
http://www.chumster.co.uk/forum/index.php?mforum=tamazirtino
http://www.amazighworld.org
http://www.tawalt.com/
http://www.artworkis.com/Amazigh/news.htm
http://www.mondeberbere.com
Tanmirt
thanks tamazirtinou for the links, I really appreciate. Valuable information on our culture. keep doing the good job. many thanks
Baddou a écrit*:
Lahcen a écrit*:
Idir a écrit*:
I dont know how old the visitors are of leschleuhs.com maybe some of them are not that serious in debating
ider,
excuse me but i thinks that s bad to class people by old, practically all the Net surfers whom you see on other site amazigh visit leschleeuhs.com but what makes the force of this site it is that one can find the races of any age there and thus it is necessary to know mix instead of wanting creates club of small and clubs of large, the young people it is our future made that they become here shows their attachment identity, certainly DEBATES dificile do not interessent them but is necessary to leave time and made that it is with us is a large pleasure (man, woman, child, baby....)
Lahcen, when you translate french to english using an online translator, it just does not make sense. Try to write directly in english, it should be better. no body cares about any mistake, or phrasale inconsistency, you might make as long as you make the effort to experess your toughts.
hello,
baou, i use online translatro for do not lose time, but i check after because i know that the translator online s very bad
TOUFTITRIT
18/02/2005, 02h19
iwa ghiknna ayayt tmazit.
Is tessenm mad ijran i ouqahouar lli ran ayziguiz zound tatbirt?
Immagh ad iyzzighiz zound n'ttat, mach our ays youfi, oukan ira ad yadou ghiklli s'ten ikka, walaini ittou tawada'ns, ghmkan as ifergh igh'aiziguiz.
Take it easy, berbers. :-D :-D :-D
'La Quatrième’, new Moroccan educational TV on air Monday
Rabat, Feb.25 - The new Moroccan satellite TV “La Quatrième” will start broadcasting Monday, according to its promoters.
“La Quatrieme”, the fourth public TV channel in Morocco will focus on education and culture, said Maria Latifi who will be heading this new channel that viewers around the world can watch through "EUTELSAT 2", from
5pm to 23pm GMT and from 12pm to 23pm GMT during weekends, in its early stage.
“La Quatrième” offers in addition to documentaries, education-support programmes, Amazigh (berber) language and road safety lessons, etc.
© MAP 2005
MOKHTAR75
01/04/2005, 00h32
Hi
Excuse me for interupting you in your discusion.
But I just would like to know who people in this forum are from England or USA?
Some are from the states. bust most of us are from France.
How about you?
..... and other from England as well
tachelhitntafraout
15/04/2005, 12h53
hello everyone, can I join to you for the discussion? I don't speak quite English but I will test, what is the subject?
there is no subject and i dont know what is the objectif to debate in english if you know that all people dont anderstand this language and taht we are firstly ichelhin before all .so it woold be better if we debate in tamazight
tachelhitntafraout a écrit*:
hello everyone, can I join to you for the discussion? I don't speak quite English but I will test, what is the subject?
tillishte
29/04/2005, 19h10
there is no subject and i dont know what is the objectif to debate in english if you know that all people dont anderstand this language and taht we are firstly ichelhin before all
just debating!!!! sorry I hate debating coz at the end ;discussions make one changing his point of view!!!!!
[ Edité par tillishte le 29/4/2005 17:11 ]
[ Edité par tillishte le 29/4/2005 17:12 ]
All right
I welcome all of you guys.
I am the initiator of this forum. My first user name was Baddou. Then I have been Baned for some reason.
Now, if you would like, we will resume this dabate in English only.
The subject was about lobbying against the Government of Morocco to create a 100% Tmazight TV in our country.
Please, share with us your insights and points of view. They will be more than welcome.
I encourage all of to write in english only.
Let's hit two birds with one stone, which means, practice english while debating your favourite cultaural matter Tmazight
Azwoo a écrit*:
My first user name was Baddou.
:-D :-D :-D I knew :-D :-D :-D
Ouarzazatnar
29/04/2005, 19h48
Why they have done 2 new chanels, Al-Maghribia and Ar-rabia whereas the amazighian people want to have just one chanel in Berberian languages...
The ministry of communication say that they don't have any money to create a new chanel, and he make 2 new chanel in arabic language !!! :-x
Thanks Warza,
They have no money! This is really funy, No kidding!! I am the Queen of England!!
How come they have all the money to create the 3d and 4th channels in arabic?
4 arabist channels. This is too much, isn't it?
We are asking for one channel only, for all of Amazighs (Rif, Atlas, Souss)
All they fear is that once we have our channel, we may defy there stupid propagand-oriented TVs.
I believe that the amazigh are democratic in essence, no one will tolerate the idea of having the chanel filled with Makhzen propaganda. If they like to see people kissing the hand of their Makhzen that's their own issue. We want a media that is 100% focused on our culture and ways to promote it.
chanel in tamazight i think that this is a dream of all imazighen in morrocco. finaly my mother can unterstand what happen s in the world .
tachelhitntafraout
30/04/2005, 21h59
Azwoo a écrit :
I am the initiator of this forum. My first user name was Baddou. Then I have been Baned for some reason.
can I know these reasons, I think of changing my user name too :-D
yaghul(wrri) gma t ngh Dda Baddou
I want to dedicate this poem to you, enjoy:
Hmad u Hacem (Poète des Ait Atta)
http://amazighworld.net/culture/poesie/hmad_u_hacem_poete_ait_atta.php
Thanks a lot Dda Ider,
Cool
I personaly known Amdiaze Ouhachem. I have many of his poetery and songs.
He is from Amagha n 'Ait 3Atta
[ Edité par Azwoo le 1/5/2005 12:39 ]
good afternoon evry body :-)
last good bye bfore fly rachid :-)
tomorrow if i remumber :-)
Chelha45
24/06/2005, 14h05
What is the topic of this post ???
The aim of this topic is to offer a place to anyone who can't speak french and wants to start a discussion a debate in english about an amazigh matter or something else according to the rules of this forum.
Chelha45
24/06/2005, 14h49
Ok good, I speak French too but if I want to say something in this post, I can do it !
Great !
Ouarzazatnar
24/06/2005, 18h46
tachelhitntafraout a écrit*:
can I know these reasons, I think of changing my user name too :-D
If you want to change your nickname, you are not obliged to be banned for this...you can also create a new one... :-D
Let's resume our debates guys!
As as I said before, let's hit two birds with one stone. Debate your favourite cultural matter while practicing english.
Do not be shy! This is a place where you can express your thoughts in english. No matter how fluent are you in english, the most important is that you participate. We won't highlight any of your spelling nor any of your phrasale inconsistencies.
Please go ahead and talk
Azwoo wrote;Please go ahead and talk
Azwoo! did you forgot what I said to you before?here you are...have the first word :-D
[ Edité par Aghrabi le 24/6/2005 22:33 ]
Aghrabi a écrit*:
Azwoo wrote;Please go ahead and talk
Azwoo! did you forgot what I said to you before?here you are...have the first word :-D
[ Edité par Aghrabi le 24/6/2005 22:33 ]
Hi Mister Aghrabi
how are things going? long time no see!
Things are getting worse and worse! We are now striving to set up the Amazigh Democratic Party. We filed for an agreement before the moroccan ministry of home affairs (interior). We are still waiting for the approval. Some are pesimistic and say that there is no way that they issue the agreement.
We all know our Makhzen. They will do their best to prevent us from approaching the voters given our commitment to democracy and human rights.
It all depends on the support we get from the Amazigh people. If we can prove that our program and ideas are welcomed by the people, we probably have some chances to negociate a compromise. The Makhzen will try to "tame" us. But for sure we will not accept any concession about our main claims namely democracy, parliamentary monarchy, amazigh language official and equal rights for all the citizens of Morocco.
long life to PDA
Azwoo! I pray every day for PDA and for a political change in tamzgha and I believe that the Most of Imazighns do the same.... at same time we all knows that the nature of the...... is not changing and there is no break with the heritage of....
I wish that our wishing comes true and long life to PDA!
It would be a great start if PDA reaches the place from where it can work and achieve the goals.
I realy hope that we get a sort of ANC [www.anc.org.za] in Morocco and North-Africa in general. Have you heard what they achived in South-Africa? one similar example is giving the cities and place names their real Amazigh names back. The capital of South-Africa isn't anymore Pretoria but the original name "Tshwane" which means 'we are all the same'
Tudrt i Tamazight
Tudrt i Afrika ;-)
I seize this opportunity of providing us with a debate dedicated to engligh, to eternally thank notably all these who have participated and taken part so far in the debate. Honestly, i find it to be of a crucial importance the nature of the subjects treated in this very forum, i.e the ways to promote our cultural and linguistic heritage, the role of mass media and how w'ere depicted in it, should we rely on ourselves to revive our culture or should we expect any kind of help from the corrupted authorities having led our country to bankcraptcy in all domains.These are, in a nutshell, some points which have been raised by all of you in an attempt to grasp the nature of the crisis that democracy and human rights in their basic aspects are assaulted in morocco, as well as to have an insight into the real challenges awaiting us in order to be recognised and to remove the injustices we're faced with as Imazighen, the ingidenous people of the northern africa since thousands of years.
This said, i would like to reconcile the two antagonistic points of view claiming for the one that in order to be recognised, this should pass through implementing the official institutions, no matter how corrupted and innefficient they are, because they remain after all public and are financed by our the taxes we pay. But still, i sould emphasize that we're not in a democracy where the public claims are taken into account. For the other point, it urges minimize the role of the public cannels on the ground of their cmplicity with lmakhzen and their limits as presenting a genuine alternative to remede to the injustices done to the poeple, especially the amazigh poeple whose history and language are distorted to push them to disapear and vanish. As a matter of fact, this oint of view reminds us that we're not in need of aby officials recognition by autorities simply because w'ere here, we still exist, and so does our culture and language, the land we live upon reflects it in its toponymy,the sun we see rise and fall every day, the air we breathe... in a word in its spirit.
[ Edité par azidar le 10/7/2005 9:50 ]
Thanks Azidar,
please feel like home and share with us your insights. Have you ever read about the PDA (Amazigh Democratic Party)? Its agreement filing is pending.
It's a party that will promote amazighity, democracy and human rights in our country.
We are aware that Makhzen won't make our life easier, but we are determined to persue for the sake of our fellow Amazighs throughout Tamazgha territory.
We need to provide PDA with a large publicity through the internet and Media. We also need to seek support and funds from western countries such us Europe and USA. The Bush plan to bolster democratic initiatives in the arab world has set up funds to finance democratic organisations. We will apply for this funding before the US secretary of state. We are certain that we will get a large support from these countries since our party is aimed to promote democracy, cultural divercity and modernity.
hello everybody
To be frank dear friend, i've never heard about the PDA before, but still i assure you that i support all your actions in favour of our language and culture. It would be, i think, an exciting idea to plead our cause before the international institutions in an attempt to widen the echos of our struggle.
As you have alluded to , the great middle east plan could be a chance for us because the "wind of change" may blow sometimes abroad. so unite our efforts and let us strive for our dignity and rights.
[ Edité par azidar le 18/9/2005 15:40 ]
Dear Azidar,
We tried the cultural militantisme for two decades. We got nothing! It's great time to head to the political arena so as to give our movement a political flavour. We recongnize that the regime is against us, but we should struggle to rally our fellow amazigh around our movement. This way, the regime can't ignore us and will be forced to set around table of negociations with us. Our movement is democratic and calls for constitutional recognition of our culture and language. We are a peacefull movement who calls for change with peacefull and democratic means. We should be confident in our actions and have nothing to fear since our cause is just and genuine.
Infortuenately we still have to deal with some insurgency within our amazigh comunity who are deeply biased by islamists and arabists propaganda. You can notice the big noise they are perpetrating against our movement in this forum. Some are even keen to collaborate with arabists to torpedoe our movement's momentum. This is what we call amazigh-de-service. Eitheir they run for arabists or for the islamists or both.
However, I believe the vast majority of amazigh are willing to praise their culture and language and consquetly will rally around PDA
Point of discussion:
What can we learn from the ANC of South-Africa? [Taking in account the mistakes they made.]
www.anc.org.za
[ Edité par Idir le 10/7/2005 13:47 ]
Dear Idir,*
We have a lot to learn from the Wisdom of Nelson Mandela and his ANC. He struggeled peacefully from jail, and led his nation to freedom and democracy. At any time, ANC had been lured by terrorism nor any violent struggle. We should notice that USA first supported Appartheid regime. But, thanks to africaners struggle as a peacefull mouvement for civil rights, America changed its stance an started to pressure Appartheid regime in the middle of seventies. International pressure and blockade lead to the self-dismissal of the appartheid ruling machine. Free elections took place, and the last appartheid ruler, De Klerk, handed over power to the ANC which won the majority in electtions. South Africa is nowadays a multi-ethnic democracy.
If we track the path of ANC in our struggle against the Makhzen, I believe we will achieve very substancial results for our culture and language.
heuu Azwo i think that u are going too far... our current situation can't be compared to the South africa's one ! thanks to god ...
"If we track the path of ANC in our struggle against the Makhzen" .. which struggle ???
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